Curse

TheOneMephisto · Nov 01, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

2x LoD is terrible, the only reason to run 2x lod is if you fear your first one will be shut down and even then it's still stupid to run LoD on both your stance monks.

Considering that if you're first LoD gets shut down you pretty much lose against a good team and assuming that the other team knows that, that's a very valid fear.

Of course, I don't think that 2 stand LoDs is particularly effective. I mean, even if LoD is pretty much the basis of the game right now, as long as you can protect your first one fairly well an RC or SoD is still magnitudes more effective for general gameplay, even with the nerfs.

Of course, if you can't protect your LoD or if you're really afraid of massive pressure + multiple avenues of attack on your LoD, a second one might not be a bad idea.

Ensign · Nov 01, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

The big issue with running 2 LoDs is that, largely because of the 80% condition, the second copy of LoD really doesn't do anything at all outside of disasters (whole party blowing up, DShot, etc). Hence you're playing down an elite most of the time and that's a pretty huge liability.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

I'm going to have to play devil's advocate with that statement:

If your team isn't in a disastrous position, then does the lack of the other Elite matter anyway?

The backline needs to be able to (A.) stop spikes, (B.) stop people from being trained, (C.) remove conditions/hexes, (D.) heal party-wide pressure

When "D" comes in the form of a single skill, why not favor double D's (lmao....) if that pairing can accomplish A, B, and C just fine as well?

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Nov 02, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I'm going to have to play devil's advocate with that statement:

If your team isn't in a disastrous position, then does the lack of the other Elite matter anyway?

The backline needs to be able to (A.) stop spikes, (B.) stop people from being trained, (C.) remove conditions/hexes, (D.) heal party-wide pressure

When "D" comes in the form of a single skill, why not favor double D's (lmao....) if that pairing can accomplish A, B, and C just fine as well?

Because it can't. Basically, you're sacrificing some efficiency when dealing with A, B, and C in order to have a back-up D. RC is much better at dealing with spikes and removing conditions than an LoD, while SoD is better at spikes and training. The LoD guy can deal with them, but it isn't as effective or efficient. At the same time, 2 LoDs isn't that much more efficient than 1, so you aren't gaining any extra efficiency there. So you're losing general efficiency in exchange for a backup.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

That's the obvious, surface answer but does not fully complete the proposed question. I give you a C+.

The side arguing for dual LoD will say that efficiency does not matter. You don't need your Monks to be sitting at 30e rather than 10e when the other team breaks. All you need them to do is hold out long enough for your team to break the other team. If losing LoD is what will cause you to break most often (disproving this assumption would be a strong point for the opposing argument), then greatly decreasing the chance that LoD will be lost (by having two of them) is a statistically greater advantage than having added power in another area that is not as important.

The side arguing against dual LoD should give specific examples as to how the inefficiency in other areas eclipses the advantage of a lesser chance of losing that all-important party-wide healing which dual LoD provides. This side of the argument also needs to address the probability of efficiency of both LoDs working together because, while the "below 80% health" clause limits them from being used in tandem all the time, there are situations where having double party-wide healing is certainly a huge benefit.

~Z

TheOneMephisto · Nov 02, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That's the obvious, surface answer but does not fully complete the proposed question. I give you a C+.

The side arguing for dual LoD will say that efficiency does not matter. You don't need your Monks to be sitting at 30e rather than 10e when the other team breaks. All you need them to do is hold out long enough for your team to break the other team. If losing LoD is what will cause you to break most often (disproving this assumption would be a strong point for the opposing argument), then greatly decreasing the chance that LoD will be lost (by having two of them) is a statistically greater advantage than having added power in another area that is not as important.

The side arguing against dual LoD should give specific examples as to how the inefficiency in other areas eclipses the advantage of a lesser chance of losing that all-important party-wide healing which dual LoD provides. This side of the argument also needs to address the probability of efficiency of both LoDs working together because, while the "below 80% health" clause limits them from being used in tandem all the time, there are situations where having double party-wide healing is certainly a huge benefit.

Okay, if you know all the answers then just say them... This isn't class. There's no need to get really elitist about it and dictate what others should be saying and GRADING them on it, because otherwise you should just say your views and let others discuss them.

But I mean, LoD only protects against pressure. As I've said, it is not the best way to protect against spikes by far, especially as having more than one infuse doesn't do anything. Without an RC or LoD, you're going to be more susceptible to deaths from spikes and short-term training, even if you're pretty much guaranteed that you will never die to pressure. When I say efficiency, you're assuming that I'm saying that they're more energy-efficient, which I'm not. I'm saying that they're more effective at saving those spikes and protecting those trained characters, though I may have made some bad word choice I admit.

Having dual LoDs makes it so that dying to pressure is pretty much impossible, but it weakens you to other forms of offense and allows them to push through more easily and make kills.

Yue · Nov 02, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

The whole reason of dual lod's popularity is the exploitation of the skill as a primary point of failure. When you look at it that way, and how teams wipe because of it, it becomes an attractive solution not to have for efficiency, but to provide a temporary patch for that point of failure.

Melody Cross · Nov 02, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The big issue with running 2 LoDs is that, largely because of the 80% condition, the second copy of LoD really doesn't do anything at all outside of disasters (whole party blowing up, DShot, etc). Hence you're playing down an elite most of the time and that's a pretty huge liability.

While I largely agree with this statement I'm curious if the same can be said at VoD when damage increases and HP gain per heal is lowered. Since most teams build to blow the other up when VoD hits, well...

The point of having a 2nd LoD for lockdown redundancy is also valid. One well placed diversion or sig of humility can (often does) cause a wipe. If you have a 3-monk (more and more common...o why not, I'll feel better: told ya so :P) with an LoD runner, it would seem a viable choice.

The weakness would be mostly on splits...and those don't happen like they used to. Times were, you would worry about any balanced flagstand team to split if you couldn't kill them. Now its all about the flagger being able to keep said split busy. LoDs are not as effective solo as other monk builds...but against most split teams, the build can hold up long enough for help to arrive, save the lord, and continue waiting for VoD.

Splitting fails if you make it to VoD now, and VoD comes too quickly to bring the Guild Lord down unless you've a dedicated split team. its something more and more teams don't defend against except as a lip-service/casual sort of way. So balanced builds are geared less toward the triple threat spike/split/flagstand pressure; more and more toward spike/pressure.

If LoD is "the" monk elite, then it seems only a natural progression of logic that it will continue to see more and more play. Its a circular conversation until Izzy uses Guild Wars brand Duct Tape on the skill.

GGs

EDIT: in defense of the OP, PnH does show superior energy returns in a 3 monk backline.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Okay, if you know all the answers then just say them... This isn't class. There's no need to get really elitist about it and dictate what others should be saying and GRADING them on it, because otherwise you should just say your views and let others discuss them.

LMAO, I knew you'd say this. Don't be mad that you didn't get an A.

I'm evoking conversation here. I don't have a firmly set opinion on the issue. So thank you for responding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

But I mean, LoD only protects against pressure. As I've said, it is not the best way to protect against spikes by far, especially as having more than one infuse doesn't do anything.

Why would you have infuse on both LoD Monks? One of them would have Spirit Bond.

Although we are being a bit narrow here. The mitigation on the midline has to be considered too and nobody has talked about that.

~Z

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 02, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Double LoD on your stand monks is bad.

LoD on a flagger on 'split' maps is bad.

Double LoD against 'rawr' type of builds is bad.

The only time LoD on a runner is really ever good is against condition/hex/physical pressure builds that are prone to shut down your stand LoD.

Or if you run dual angelic bond paragons on burning isle.

Byron · Nov 02, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Double LoD on your stand monks is bad.

Eh...yeah. RC is really great when it fills red bars all the way up, and SoD has obvious appeal. Dual LoD would probably need one or two big heals in it (ie heal other), because dismiss and w/e won't do it, and the backline would lack prot power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

The whole reason of dual lod's popularity is the exploitation of the skill as a primary point of failure.

Definitely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

But I mean, LoD only protects against pressure

It also does wonders for splits, which was my liking of a 2-LoD backline in the first place.

Snow Bunny · Nov 02, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

The whole reason of dual lod's popularity is the exploitation of the skill as a primary point of failure. When you look at it that way, and how teams wipe because of it, it becomes an attractive solution not to have for efficiency, but to provide a temporary patch for that point of failure.

QFT.

I still love SoD, it's always been a pretty sexy skill. RC is fun though.

Zuranthium · Nov 02, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Or if you run dual angelic bond paragons on burning isle.

That match was so bizarre.

Also, Burning Isle needs to go away or be changed.

~Z

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 03, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

That match was so bizarre.

Also, Burning Isle needs to go away or be changed.

~Z

I'm not a big fan of this map but I don't think it's that problematic, or not until the NPCs start fighting at vod and it turns into a huge clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO near the stand anyway.

Seraphim of Chaos · Nov 03, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Instead of SoD, I saw a Me/Mo FC Guardian with an E-Management elite on Obs mode...

It wasn't too bad, tbh.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 03, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Instead of SoD, I saw a Me/Mo FC Guardian with an E-Management elite on Obs mode...

It wasn't too bad, tbh.

The problem with prot me/mos is that they have no way of making red bars go up, due to the lack of DF and the need to triple spec (FC, insp and prot), other that that most prot skills don't really benefit from FC whereas healing skills are a lot less effective without the DF.

Seraphim of Chaos · Nov 03, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The problem with prot me/mos is that they have no way of making red bars go up, due to the lack of DF and the need to triple spec (FC, insp and prot), other that that most prot skills don't really benefit from FC whereas healing skills are a lot less effective without the DF.

The mesmer wasn't protting. She probably had 8+1 FC, 8 prot, and the rest in Domination and Inspiration.

Yue · Nov 03, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

So he was bad.

twicky_kid · Nov 03, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I remember a very long time ago there was a me/mo using RC. Surprised it hasn't resurfaced.

pah01 · Nov 04, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

the reason it hasnt resurfaced is because it is bad